Derek: I think it’s worth noting, briefly, to start, that it seems to me that within Canada - historically and in the present day - the term “Concrete poetry” has remained the favoured term over the more internationally-prevalent “Visual Poetry.” Maybe because of historically important figures looming over our poetics, or perhaps it’s because of a relative isolation from European trends … but one way or the other, i tend to lean into “Concrete Poetry”, a term which, i feel, connects me to a dialogue with my poetic elders.
Perhaps the contemporary use of that term is due to the fact that many of the poetic elders within Canada are still with us, still creating, and still inspiring.
Dani: Yeah, that’s interesting! I definitely feel like across Canada we used the term “Concrete” longer and more broadly than in many other places, perhaps especially in more academic circles. I am thinking especially of the 2018 Kanada Koncrete conference in Ottawa that we both attended. But, I do think that as our field explodes into more various forms, formats, and voices (and as the looming presence of those “historically important figures” you point to recedes slightly), I am seeing more and more use of the terms “Visual Poetry” and “Vispo.” I am very curious about where you draw the lines between (and/or around) those categories.
Derek: I don’t know that my categorical lines are particularly clear or concise, but i tend to think that letterform/typographically informed work (that may, say, work in the vein of gomringer, de campos, nichol, etc.) is “concrete” while work that includes drawing, collage, photography moves towards “visual poetry” (as a term “vispo” tends to give me hives ;) ) but i still think of all of “this” work produced in Canada as “concrete” (i interviewed Darren Wershler ages back on this, and i think he fell in the same general thinking). But these are more personal categories than academically supported differentiations. Do you think that “concrete” still serves?
All of that said, to me what is really inherently involved in concrete poetry in Canada is supportive small press activity, and on-going engagement and support of poetic precedent (like keeping Eric Schmaltz editing Judith Copithorne’s Another Order: Selected Works, or bill bissett’s breth / th treez of lunaria: seektid rare n nu pomes n drawings 1957-2019 or my co-editing of volumes by bpnichol, John Riddell, and bill bissett) which has allowed for poets to have both mentorship and space to explore.
Dani: Yes, there certainly is a lot of looking back to look forward in the world of Canadian visual poetry, owing a little to how rich the history has been and a little, I think, to how separate we are geographically and so find a closeness in conversation. I am often struck by non-Canadians who enjoy visual poetries of all kinds who say things like “You are so lucky, there is so much good/interesting/varied visual poetry coming out of Canada.” And I guess I did not realize how unique that was, globally, to be a part of such a rich conversation. But we do indeed have a rich history of this kind of visually experimental work across this country, and it’s been marked by a great, punky DIY attitude. I have been thinking about this as we started putting this conversation together and then was struck by this passage from an email in my inbox from jwcurry publicizing the launch of LMNTS: fractionating 6 decades of canadian extralinearature (2025):
Canada is a peculiarly rich country in terms of its proclivities toward contrariness. in literature/writing in particular, there exists a massive body of work that goes "beyond the standard" in terms of the forms of its delivery. from the mid-196os onward, sound, concrete & visual poetries, nonlinear narratives, lettriste graphics, paintings & collage, & other forms of language given multidimensional forms begin to proliferate. despite the paucity of potential for publication, sheer determination has insisted a most fulsome body of work accrued over the decades that is all but unknown, given presence more often than not by those producing it: far from getting paid advances for their work, these were those having to pay for the privilege of doing the work & getting it out there in the first place.
I love this idea that the field (I hesitate to say “industry” but also dislike “field” for its academic-ness) is marked by its “sheer determination” and that against all odds, it keeps proliferating and growing and evolving and being truly delightful in the process.
Derek: That “great, punky, DIY” attitude - I don’t know if this is artistically in response to the long shadow that the US casts over Canadian culture and arts, or if it’s a remnant of 1960s/70s (say 1967 - 1976) governmental artistic funding and the long echo of how that funding - which brought small presses and magazines to the fore - continues through the students and “grand-students” of the folks who benefitted from that largesse … but i agree with you, there is an ongoing proliferation of concrete/visual poetry. I’ve rarely found magazines or journals who are averse to publishing concrete, and many presses are open as well - it feels fully a part of the poetic conversation, even if rarely seen for larger prizes, reviews, etc. Where, and from whom, do you draw inspiration?
Dani: I absolutely love the idea that the nationalistic impetus that pushed for all that government arts funding has had this, as you say, “long echo” of small press engagement. I hope that we have the sense to continue (increase???) funding for these types of activities. I suppose one might suspect that more government funding for the arts would produce more, say, nationalistic, traditional, and perhaps conservative publications, but that has absolutely not been the case. We have seen a real eruption of the experimental, the radical, and the unabashedly political throughout small press of all kinds but perhaps especially in the visually experimental. And I have seen the same thing you’re seeing; that concrete/visual works are a part of the poetic conversation and published in journals/presses/venues that are not specifically visual or even experimental all the time. One of my very first visual poems that I published in a journal was published in Canadian Literature of all places! I draw inspiration from, gosh, everything. Right now, I am particularly inspired by, rereading, and loving Robin Richardson’s Try Not to Get Too Attached (Book*hug, 2019) which I think is so brilliant. What about you? Where is your inspiration coming from lately?
Derek: I have been following my reading for the most part these days – (re)discovering older voices and some of the nooks and crannies that i had forgotten or not known but also enjoying the work of “newer” poets like Kevin Stebner, Astra Papachristodoulou (UK). So that, but also a lot of comics (particularly 1950s Uncle Scrooge), oh and the work of Douglas Kearney (US). My reading and writing are pretty entwined, and I am between writing projects and so am mostly returning to the loam, the fertilizer, as I await another crop to break through the soil.
To return to the venues for concrete and visual poetry in Canada for a moment though; while i have found that journals, magazines and small presses - whether that be micropress or smaller independent presses - are for the most part open to concrete and visual work, Canadian prize culture has not been. I think that the only time that a book of concrete poetry won the Governor-General’s Award, for instance, was in 1970 with bpNichol. And even then, he won for 4 small press books (the last time any small press book received that award), one of which was The Cosmic Chef Glee & Perloo Memorial Society Under the Direction of Captain Poetry Presents: An Evening of Concrete which was an anthology which he edited. So perhaps because concrete in Canada has worked below the radar of what Charles Bernstein would call “official verse culture” there has been a freedom to play and explore.
Dani: Absolutely true. The larger prizes do typically favour lyric, narrative, free verse, text-based poetry. Even the smaller prizes, like the bpNichol Chapbook Award (administered by Meet the Presses) is not often awarded to a visual poet, though some recent winning chapbooks are quite visual (if not purely “visual poetry). I am thinking here especially of Matthew James Weigel’s really excellent It Was Treaty/It Was Me (published by Vallum) which won the award in 2021, which is not fully “vispo” but is very much visually innovative. It’s worth noting that the Writers’ Federation of Nova Scotia recently instituted (in 2023) the very cool Ellemeno Visual Literature Prize which describes itself as “an annual celebration of creative cross-pollination between the literary arts and the visual arts” and which promises to continue celebrating visual works of all kinds!
Derek: If the prizes focus on lyric and narrative work, in what ways could visual poets look to understand the impact or success of their work? What makes a “successful” concrete / visual poem?
Dani: I think the answer that visual poetries have chosen in Canada is to turn to other, more community-based or practice-driven metrics to understand the impact or “success” of our work. We know that experimental and visual work is never going to get the same kind of mainstream, institutional validation, or even financial viability of other genres/forms. So, success in visual and concrete poetry often comes from resonance within small press communities, invitations to exhibit or publish, peer recognition, and audience engagement, that sort of thing. I feel like I’m always quoting that Billy Collins quip that “the trouble with poetry is / that it encourages the writing of more poetry” and I think that is the biggest metric by which we can understand success in terms of visual poetries in Canada; how does it continue to encourage more (and more varied) visual work? That and, like, can you make enough money selling that chap or collecting donations at a reading to write another chapbook.
There are also a number of excellent medium-sized presses publishing visual poetries collections that will always be benchmarks for impactful, engaging visual works here in Canada: Coach House Books, Book*hug, House of Anansi, Invisible Publishing, Talonbooks, and Assembly Press to name a few. The venues for publishing this kind of work seem to be multiplying! Why do you think that is? What’s been changing that makes publishing a visual/concrete collection more possible (publishable? sellable?) than it was before? Or am I thinking too wishfully here?
Derek: Historically it seems that concrete and visual poetry in Canada was limited to a few presses: Coach House Press, Talonbooks, Underwhich Editions, The Mercury Press, Longspoon, alongside micro-press publishers like grOnk, 1cent, etc. I don’t know that the proliferation of presses open to this of work has increased due to financial reasons (that is, I don't think books are selling better than they did). But I do suspect that many of the presses that you listed are now edited by folks who grew up and became authors because of the early publishing efforts of the historical presses. Due to the publishing records of the 1960s, 70s, 80s, and the adventuresome work that readers could find, today’s publishers entered the field with a much broader view of what poetry could be – and we now see that reflected in the publishing mandates of an increasing number of presses.
Dani: It’s me, so obviously I’m going to end up asking this question, but I’m curious how you see digital technologies playing in this shift. Do you think the increased openness to visual poetries in Canada is also tied to how digital tools (things like design software, social media, even digital publishing platforms) have made it easier (and maybe more enticing?) to work visually? Are we entering a new era of digital-concrete hybridity?
Derek: That is such a great question. I do think that the way people read has changed: digital tools, phones, tablets, etc. - and that is generating a new awareness / openness for multigenre writing, for typographically driven work, for visual poetry … and that offers new spaces and audiences for poets to explore. Yeah!
Dani: Absolutely! And maybe that’s where we can end; with this sense of continued and expanding possibility. Canadian visual and concrete poetry has always thrived at the edges, and the proliferation of digital tools, small/indie presses, and cross-disciplinary experimentation means those edges are only getting wider and more porous. If, as we’ve kind of been suggesting throughout this, visual poetry in Canada has been shaped by a spirit of contrariness, community, and DIY determination, then the current moment feels like an invitation to carry that legacy forward with new tools, new voices, and new readers ready to engage.
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Dr. Dani Spinosa is a poet, scholar, educator, writer, and a trained full-stack developer. She is an adjunct professor, a software developer at Hatch Coding, a digital and creative project manager, a co-founding editor of Gap Riot Press, President of the feminist literary journal, Canthius, the Managing Editor of the Electronic Literature Directory, and the author of two books: OO: Typewriter Poems (Invisible Publishing, 2020) and Anarchists in the Academy (U of Alberta Press, 2018). She has published several chapbooks of poetry and several more peer-reviewed journal articles on poetry. She lives in beautiful Wasaga Beach, Ontario.
Dr. Derek Beaulieu is the author/editor of over twenty-five collections of poetry, prose, and criticism. His most recent volume of poetry, Surface Tension, was published by Toronto’s Coach House Books and his Do It Wrong is forthcoming from Assembly Press (2026). Beaulieu has received the Queen Elizabeth II Platinum Jubilee Medal for his dedication to Albertan literature. He is the only graduate from the University of Calgary’s Department of English to receive the Faculty of Arts ‘Celebrated Alumni Award’ and the only graduate in creative writing to receive Roehampton University’s Chancellor’s Alumni Award. Beaulieu has served as Poet Laureate of both Calgary and Banff and is the Director of Literary Arts at Banff Centre for Arts and Creativity.
