Zoe
Whittall
is a bestselling novelist and TV writer. Her novel The Best Kind of People was
a finalist for the Giller prize and named Indigo’s #1 book of the year. The
New York Times called her fourth novel The Spectacular “a highly
readable testament to the strength of the maternal bond” and The Toronto
Star called it “a singularly impressive piece of fiction.” She won a Lamda
literary award for her second novel Holding Still for as Long as Possible,
and the Writers Trust Dayne Ogilvie prize for her debut, Bottle Rocket Hearts. She won a Canadian Screen Award as part of the writing team for The
Baroness Von Sketch Show. Her latest books are No Credit River
(poetry/memoir), Wild Failure (short fiction), and The Fake (a
novel). She lives in Prince Edward County, Ontario.
Zoe Whittall reads in Ottawa on Friday, March 28 as part of VERSeFest 2025.
Amanda
Earl: In
Ars Poetica, you mention that you read everything labelled autofiction,
and you are drawn to autofiction as an alienated truth. You say it permits
stories without villains. Were you consciously reading autofiction to try to
figure out the rules or conventions? Can you talk about why the idea of an
“alienated truth” was attractive or generative to you?
Zoe
Whittall:
I love autofiction mostly because I love style, voice, language, and character
more than I like plot. I like a tightly plot driven TV show, I love a
meandering thought bubble of a book. Give me a slim volume about a girl sitting
in bed thinking about her philosophies or feelings and I’m all over it. But
part of what I love about it is its implicit unreliability, and the sort of
gossip-y or fake closeness of feeling as though you’re sitting beside the
author when they’re at their weirdest and they’re telling you secrets. But no
one is ever really telling you secrets. They’re offering you a sculpture,
highly cultivated, polished and chipped away at, that only looks raw or like it
has an organic, improvised quality. Every word, phrase, moment, in any good book
is deliberate. If it was just blurted out and messy it would be like when you
look at a bad painting but you don’t know why it's bad but you know it somehow.
And the secret is that the composition is off balance. But I love the lie of
autofiction. It feels close to what I like about the new narrative movement
which was this raw, circular, rule-breaking literature that was often about sex
and oblivion and queerness with these unwieldy and wild sentences that felt
like you were just reading someone’s scrawled vulnerabilities. So alienated
truth was the most concise way I felt I could describe what I think the best
kind of hybrid, personal texts can aim for.
AE: Creative nonfiction and
memoir have overlapping qualities. This book is described also as a memoir in
prose poetry. Can you talk about your experiences in trying to label this work?
ZW: Ok so here is where I
confess that I assumed creative non-fiction and memoir were one and the same?
Is the difference that CNF can be more creative – i.e., loose with the facts
and more story-like? It started as a book of mostly prose poems, and the more I
worked on it the more I started to see a book length narrative arc. And then I
started to think about the confessional element and how I might be able to be
more overt about it.
AE: In your Ex-Puritan
interview with Kailey Havelock about your novel The Best Kind of People,
you write “I used to feel more comfortable in first person, and sometimes I
still do.” Now you are using first person and writing something that is so
clearly about personal experience. How did you get more comfortable with
writing in first?
ZW: I feel comfortable in
first and third for different reasons. Both have an intimacy that you can’t get
with the other. Sustaining first for an entire novel is difficult in terms of
the constraint of what you can know, but it is also roomy and had a depth you
can’t always get in the same way with third. I like them both.
AE: This book is so
readable, relatable, funny, biting, and raw with self-deprecating humour. As a
comedy writer, I imagine you hone your craft for timing and knowing what is
humorous for an audience. In the book, did you have to try to be humorous or is
this just how you are? Can you edit humour or is it something that just has to
flow naturally?
ZW: It's something that
comes naturally to me whenever I’m wrestling with an idea or how to think about
something. Certainly it’s a defense mechanism and also how I understand the
world. I’ve also been working as a comedy writer for TV and crafting jokes while
also writing books for about ten years now, so the instinct is hard to turn
off. I definitely edit humor the same way I would any sentence, for rhythm and
pay off and I think about how long a line is and whether or not the joke is too
quick or too long.
AE: One of the areas of the
book which impressed me was the constant engagement with its form, the
metatextuality of it. You refer to it as a “book of ideas” (4) and “A poem is
four hundred years of lesbian gossip” (10). You say that “form is content”
(15). Content can be both the substance of a work and a state of mind. The form
here troubles or queers the journal/memoir/poetic form by playing with it, such
as you do in the prose pantoum (20) or by using techniques such as imagery and
repetition which hybridizes prose and poetry. You mention Dodie Bellamy and the
New Narrative and mention that you were inspired by it? Can you give some
examples of how it inspired you? Did it help you tackle ways in which to
approach an unreliable memoir, for example?
ZW: I was thinking about
something Dodie Bellamy said in an interview about how the new narrative
movement was big on telling not showing. I think that unlocked something in me
while writing this book, to stop being afraid of defining the genre and being
fixed in any which way. I was, am, very influenced by that worlde of mostly
queer avant garde writers who were unafraid to break with the conventions of
the time, who wrote about shame with humor, sexuality, and dying – very much
influenced by aids and the conservatism of the 80s, I imagine. The kind of
confessional zine era I started writing in, those movements were in
conversation with each other. New narrative writers were so daring on the page
with what looked like confession but was highly artful and audacious, using
real names and real events, but twisting and subverting it all. I returned to
Kathy Acker and Gary Indiana and Gail Scott while writing the book, I was
looking for permission to really go wild after a few years of writing fairly
conventional novels, form-wise.
AE: There are vivid details
in the book. Is writing a journal or diary part of your everyday practice or
something you did to work on this book?
ZW: I journalled obsessively
in my younger years but I haven’t been consistent about it in a long time. So
some of the details I’m looking back on are from photographs or are just
particularly memorable, others start as a sensory detail from a journal and then
I expand on them or make them more stark or interesting.
AE: What is it like to read
the book to an audience? Are there certain parts that you don’t read or wish to
avoid reading? Are you surprised at what people laugh at?
ZW: I mostly read from the
ars poetica and any of the poems with humor because they work better out loud.
Especially since I started writing for comedy shows and doing some stand-up,
I’m most comfortable if I can make at least a few people in the audience laugh.
There are certainly poems I don’t think would work from the stage.
AE: In some ways, the book
could be a handbook for the broken-hearted, especially in its reference to
transmasculine and femme butch relationships, which as you mention is rare. I
love the idea of writing the book you wish to see in the world. I feel like
this is a book I wish to see in the world, including the wisdom you share and
its hybridity. I am grateful to you for sharing your grief, your heartbreak and
your experiences as a writer. Do you think you will play with this unreliable
memoir, prose poem format again? How does it compare to writing fiction for
you?
ZW: Thank you! I will
definitely write more prose poetry. I love the form. I love a long line and
small stories pushing up against imagery and comedy and fragments. I’m not sure
if I’ll ever be explicit about writing memoir again. Depends on what happens in
my life, I suppose?
AE: Can you achieve an
objective distance from your writing at the editing stage when you so closely
write about grief and heartbreak?
ZW: I think so, or you can
close to it. And then you have the gift of an objective editor who can remind
you what is artful or what the interesting idea might be that you’re wrestling
with, and then what is the diary stuff that can be cut to make the work better
and real.
AE: You mention that your ex
will hate the book but will never read it (51). Did you feel you had to be
careful in how you depicted him in the book?
ZW: Yes. The book is about
me and my grief process, I offer very few specific details about him and I did
that on purpose bc it felt like the ethical thing to do. As a reader I love the
gore of gossip and confession but as a writer I can’t help but always think of
the real people I love and have loved and their feelings.
AE: “There’s the way I live
and the way I want to live.” I feel like this could be a refrain for queer
people and their lives, that feeling of having to fit into some concept of
heteronormativity that is shoved down our throats through film, tv, etc. Do you
find models for the way you want to live in art, literature and film and do
they act as solace or reassurance? Today, given the rise of homophobia and
transphobia and removal of rights, especially in the USA, do you feel like your
work might help queer and trans people feel less alone?
ZW: I’m not sure. I’ve
certainly heard from a lot of readers so far who have felt seen in terms of the
specific kind of heartbreak devastation that can happen when you end a
relationship with someone who was very push-and-pull emotionally, where you
feel caught in a kind of addictive cycle. It’s a strange, surreal kind of
dynamic, not quite like regular heartbreak or grief because there is an added
feeling of such utter confusion for which way is up or down. The line about the
way I live and the way I want to live was for me about the things you say and
believe about who you are in relationship and how you’re getting by, and then
the truth of those most sorrowful moments.
The
rise of transphobia right now is so terrifying. I feel like I can’t even make
sense of how bad it is getting every day. I feel like we have to prepare for
war and I’m not being an hysterical leftist overstating harm, I really do feel
like it’s a new era and I’m very scared.
AE: I appreciated your
inclusion of the details of the literary life: awards, artist retreats, toxic
CanLit, struggles to write, responses to fan mail, etc.
ZW: I couldn’t write about
the last ten years of my life without mentioning the strangeness of life as a
full time writer within this particular world of Can Lit. So many things
happened all at once, and it was a very exciting time but in some ways any
artist’s career has extreme ups and downs. It mirrored the relationship in a
way. So there was chaos everywhere. And I dislike reading memoir by artists
where they leave out the day to day practical details of being an artist.
AE: “I can’t choose safety
as an artist…” (71) Did writing and publishing this work help you work through
your grief and heartbreak and did it make you feel unsafe? How do you cope with
such feelings?
ZW: I’m not sure if it
helped me cope, but it did help to write a story of it all.
AE: “My feelings were so big
I was stumbling through our life together, a messy chaos monster.” (51) I think
a lot of people will relate to this book and I appreciate your sharing your
stumbles. Thank you for writing no credit river and for being willing to
be open about your experiences.
ZW: Thank you, Amanda!
Looking forward to seeing you in Ottawa.
Amanda
Earl
(she/her) is a writer, editor, mentor, reviewer, publisher, living on the
unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabeg Peoples. Hire her as an editor
or literary event organizer. Her latest book is Beast Body Epic, a
collection of near-death long poems. More info: AmandaEarl.com.
Linktr.ee/AmandaEarl