This round table discussion about English Language Poetry and Politics in Quebec began with Jean-Paul Murray’s comment (see below) about a round table discussion between Stephen Morrissey, Ken Norris and myself, moderated by Carolyn Marie Souaid, and posted online at periodicities (August 11, 2022). It was joined by Joe Fiorito, journalist poet who lived in Montreal but now resides in Toronto, Antonio D’Alfonso, poet, publisher and musician who was very much involved in the French and English publishing scene in the 70s & 80’s, Ken Norris, American born, who moved to Montreal but now resides in Toronto and Carolyne Van Der Meer who moved to Montreal from Ontario. This round table is more an expression of opinions and experiences than responses to comments by the participants. It is wide ranging that references the past as well as comments on the present as seen and experienced by the contributors.
Jean-Paul Murray: I wonder if Quebec nationalism has torn the heart out of English-language poetry in the province... Would a young F.R. Scott be able to emerge and thrive in that national-tribalist context?
Endre Farkas: Is it something specific in the roundtable (the one moderated by Carolyn Marie Souaid) that made you ask that question?
J-PM: I’m just wondering if all the Quebec poets have moved to Toronto or elsewhere throughout Canada... First thing that came to mind...
EF: There are far more English language poets in Montreal/Quebec/townships environs than during my “salad days”. Most, from what I see, today are more interested and involved with personal identity issues/politics than political ones. I don’t think it concerns them that much because most are comfortable in both languages and mixing with the Francophone poets. Also the Francophone poets are also less uptight about Quebec independence. That seems to be more an ideological dog whistle used by the politicians. In the 70s & 80 most English language poets were not very concerned about language issues because they weren't that fluent in the language, and did not consider them their issue. Ironically, the people that I knew who got involved creatively were allophone poets. Tom Konyves (Hungarian) and Ken Norris (American) created a video poem ‘See/Saw’ that started with the lines “I saw/my country in half”. Tom made at least one other video poem whose title I can’t remember right that dealt with the language issue. I (Hungarian) wrote performance poem piece Face Off/Mise au Jeu, and another videopoem Language Cops & wrote 'Love in Quebec' that explored the relations between the two “solitudes”. Tom Konyves & the other Vehicule poets were involved in a project of putting poems/English and French on the busses in Montreal. When the Bus Company didn’t want to put the English poems on the busses, we created a manifestation in which Frank Scott and Louis Dudek participated. More recently (2013) Carolyn Marie Souaid and I edited a book (Language Matters: Interview with 22 Quebec Poets, published by Signature Editions). We asked them about language and politics in Quebec and how it affected their work. Very few saw it as an issue. I’m curious what role you think English language poets should play in the politics in Quebec today?
J-PM: I was wondering if Montreal/Quebec were still the beating heart of this half continent we call a country, as Hugh MacLennan put it. From what you say, it looks like its “double heart beat and self-moved reciprocation” have grown stronger. Perhaps that’s why the Franco poets are less uptight about independence… maybe that led the way to a greater understanding… I think of the Anne Hébert and Frank Scott translating each other.
Beyond expressing the social spirit of the times, I believe English-language poets can do good work when it comes to speaking about issues facing Quebec anglophones (e.g., higher level of poverty for those who live outside of Montreal). Perhaps mixing a little Richler and Scott. Hard to do without sounding preachy...
EF: I think we Montrealers would like to think so. The best we can do is claim that it once was. There is a very vibrant literary scene but it is very beneath the surface of the skin or consciousness of the city. And really diverse. We can’t throw around names that are nationally recognizable, or even recognizable by most Montrealers, though I’m sure their names are worthy of attention. As for your single/double heart reference, I think the number of hearts beating is much more than two and that may contribute to the difficulty of saying what is a Montrealer, Quebecer and/or Canadian heart. We have gender, cultural, racial, indigenous, age, linguistic (I must have missed some) concerns and divides to see the now and the possible future. I would like to see more social, political (no preachy, heavy handed) poetry. I think the problem is that we Canadian poets look at the local as not having national or global consequences. I think part of the problem and has been, for a while, is that we know too little about our history, of ourselves. I think we are being educated, not so much by schools as by the “others” claiming their voices be heard, their part of the quilt be displayed. I think poets need to listen and educate themselves about the truths and lies that make us who we are. And who we are is still, as it always has been, an evolving answer.
To be a little more local and practical, until the English language media takes a more serious interest in what is going on locally (in literature), unless schools teach more of what is being produced locally and the readership takes more serious interest in local writers, we are not going to matter. And that is not only bad for the local writers but for the Montreal English speaking people who want to live here and celebrate those who reflect them and who give them a mirror to see themselves.
J-P M: But surely the English language is a vehicle for all that diversity... even if the Legault government is doing its best to strangle it ...
EF: You’re right that English language is the vehicle for all that diversity but I think most see that as secondary to the content. And perhaps the best we can hope for in these times from English language poets is that the poems themselves be the proof of the language that is worth speaking up for.
Joe Fiorito: Scott was a brilliant guy, and a product of his strengths and temperament in his time.
will there be another? no. will there be another Richler? no. but will there be others? bet on it, when the time is right…Scott brought about real change with his words... including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms... unacknowledged legislators of the world and all that...
J-PM: yes he did.
Ken Norris: Frank Scott was amazing. It is hard to imagine Canada without him. As Endre knows, when there was a kerfuffle about the first Poetry on the Buses project back in 1979, Scott showed up in the snow and sleet to protest with us. He was eighty years old at the time.
Then, when we got on the “publicity bus,” all of the poems were up, including those in English. That morning certain sections of Bill 101 had been struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada as unconstitutional. When the journalists realized that Scott was there, they made a beeline to him to discuss the Supreme Court and Bill 101.
In
my memoir, after I describe the English language poets protest, I write “We
thought we were just doing Art, but we had wandered into Law and Politics.”
Earlier, in 1977, Tom Konyves and I had collaborated on a videopoem called See/Saw. That piece was all about language politics in Quebec.
And you and I talked about language politics in the Introduction to Montreal English Poetry of the Seventies.
JF: my status: i was an outsider from the start, and in my profession i was a modern migrant worker: N. Ont, Iqaluit, Regina, Montreal, Toronto. With an Italian name. I never belonged, and didn’t exactly want to belong; being on the outside helped me keep my observational instincts sharp; useful for journalism, and poetry…Belonging makes me uncomfortable, perhaps because it means conforming, if only just a little. This may not be helpful. On the other hand, being an English-language writer in Montreal in the early ‘90s made me part of a small gang of outsiders. Mostly I don’t know. My perspective on anything has always been outside looking in, while at the same time trying to understand what it might be like to be on the inside. I know. Not helpful.
Antonio D’Alfonso:
Hello all.
Thank you for
thinking of me.
I say this with
a grin.
On this
nationalist issue I have written and published
in three books
and many mags and scholarly papers.
I say this it
is because
this roundtable
is mostly
about the
Vehicule Poets
(whom I read
and praised and published)
And their
relationship
with the
French-language
counterpart.
Not about me
or what
Guernica was between
1978-2010.
As a publisher
and editor,
I think this
roundtable could have been
a possible book
idea.
By extending
the invitation first to
Jean-Paul, and
then to Joe Fiorito
who as he said
himself,
is not much
versed in the issue,
now to me:
I am thankful.
The roundtable
raises
a few ideas in my
head.
So let me say a
few words:
I have written
and published
and spent over
half a million dollars
on trying to be
a French-language
artist. I even
made films in French.
Since 1970. I
failed.
In 1979 I asked
that Cohen
and Layton be
Honorary Members
for UNEQ and
was violently shut up. I failed.
In 1990 the
Académie des lettres
du Québec
pretty much kicked me out of Quebec
for being
influenced by multiculturalism.
I moved to
Toronto and continue to live there
part time. I
failed.
A horror story.
G. V. in a
washroom
struck my hand
and reprimanded me
for being
multicultural. Failed.
I learned in
1992 that all the money
I had invested
in publishing French-language
books were all
paid by me --
I realized I
had never received
one penny from
the government as a publisher
for the
French-language books
I published for
over twenty years.
Nationalism is
healthy
in Canada, and
with nationalism
racism and
intolerance galore.
I am allergic
to nationalism.
Regardless
of the nationalism
expressed
in the writing
milieu on the French side,
I made friends.
In 2012 for
speaking against
students (carré
rouge) waving their nationalist flag
or worse the
patriots’ flag
I was fired
from my teaching job.
(Court
followed. I lost.)
I have been
living in poverty
ever since.
If I am to
participate
in this
roundtable
I could not
possibly use my name.
My identity
would have to be
totally erased.
I have not been
published
in French since
my book En italiques (2000).
Which was
pretty much banned here.
(The publisher
included
a WARNING TO
THE READER
note as an
introduction.)
Contrary to
what you believe,
what is
happening today or what this
government says
today was written
and thought by
writers and
poets and filmmakers
decades ago.
I was present.
I quarreled all the time.
And learned to
get drunk
to block my
ears.
Pound, a fine
fascist,
was correct:
Poets are the antennae of the State.
These words
should suffice
to express my
fear.
I have not gone
out
in public as a
writer since 2012.
I don’t care in
what language nationalism comes out
I will speak
against it.
I was born here
and never for
even one second
felt at home in
this country.
Nor in any
country.
I do not
understand Tradition.
And I am not
the only one.
There is not
one writer
in
French-language Quebec
who has written
against
nationalism or
their obsession
with language
or religion or
territory.
Take care.
Be healthy.
Tony.
J-MP: I really feel there's an important vein to
be mined in this discussion. I like Antonio’s story about the struggle to be
bilingual and multi-cultural against a national-tribalist establishment... and
Joe Fiorito feeling like an outsider... The battle rages on, or smoulders below
the surface.
This news story kind of illustrates how it unfolds in some corners of Quebec.
Carolyne Van Der Meer: I am not sure I am the best participant for this round table discussion, as my point of view is very different from yours. I came to Quebec in 1990 at the age of 21. I chose Quebec because of the French language, because of Quebecois culture. I grew up in small-town Ontario and hungered to be part of a larger cultural fabric, one that wasn’t steeped in ignorance and small-mindedness. I went to University of Ottawa, initially on a scholarship to study French literature. I eventually switched to English literature because I missed my favourite dead British poets and perhaps just wasn’t ready for what the lettres françaises program had to offer. No matter, my love affair with the French language and with Quebec had begun. I spent the summer of 1988 in the Eastern Townships as an equitation instructor at a kids’ camp and came to Montreal once a week to visit my best friend, who I’d met in my first year at University of Ottawa. Between the Eastern Townships and Montreal, I was hooked, and I knew I wanted to live in Montreal. In 1990, I had a job opportunity here and I took it—instead of moving to Toronto to do Ryerson’s graduate program in journalism. I have no regrets. I met my husband in 1991—and never looked back. My husband is half Quebecois, so I married into the culture. I worked in corporate communications—and was always hired for my English skills. Yes, perhaps I was always “other,” but I fit right in with my francophone colleagues. I became fully bilingual not long after arriving here—and now I live a good part of my life in French. I have many francophone friends, some of them among my closest. French has become a deep part of me, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I wasn’t a poet when I got here—that came later. And now, after four books published (one of which is a bilingual collection, for which I translated my own poems into French), I am well integrated into the English poetry scene. My one desire is that the English and French poetry communities mix more. For me, the language you speak doesn’t matter; at the end of the day, what matters is this love of poetry. We need to keep it alive—in all languages. So right here, in Quebec, let’s keep it alive in both French and English. As David Goudreault says, “J’en appelle à la poésie”—this speaks more to me than any language politics.
When I took on the role of Quebec Representative for the National Council of the League of Canadian Poets a couple of years ago, my promise was to work hard to bring the two communities together. During the height of COVID, I edited a chapbook called Les voix du Québec/Voices of Quebec—and there is an intentional equal representation of English-speaking and French-speaking poets in that volume—among them some of the biggest names in French-language poetry today: Denise Desautels, Louise Dupré, Martine Audet and Diane Régimbald, among others. I held a bilingual launch for the chapbook, hosted by Moncton, NB anglophone poet laureate, Kayla Geitzler, as part of her Attic Owl reading series—and anglo and franco poets alike were genuinely pleased to participate in this bilingual event that showcased current English and French poetry. And in August, I was one of two anglophone poets reading among more than 40 francophone poets at La grande nuit de la poésie in St-Venant, organized by Richard Séguin and David Goudreault. I read in both languages, and felt the warm welcome of fellow poets, language aside.
My politics are for poetry. We are all human. Our love of poetry should unite us, not divide us.
AD: This is the
bouncing of the ball
against
the wall.
In
no way, a reaction to anything said above.
I
spent the day yesterday replying to
a
similar topic to a writer in Italy.
She
inquired about the linguistic
laws
in Canada.
It
seems that Italy is going to pass
a
law that will force Italians in South Tyrol
to
answer the question:
Are
you Italian or German?
If
you choose German
the
citizen will be forced out
of
his home.
German
is an official language in Italy
(Tyrol,
Venice, and that part of Italy
is
German-speaking and also Slovene
and
Croatian and Serbian and Ladino,
and
the language used by the Jews in that part
of
the world: the Kingdom of Venice and Sweden were
the
only two countries that received Jews
kicked
out of Spain during the Inquisition).
Why
do I mention Italy?
Because
Italy has only imposed
Italian
as an official language
in 2007.
It had no official language
before
that.
And
this law has been
contested
violently
by
Italians from the left.
Italy
has about a dozen
official
languages.
The
nationalist have tried
in
1923, in 1968, in 1980
to
impose Italian on its population.
It
is not really working.
Citizenry
there is based on flesh and blood,
not
the language spoken.
They
want to change that.
In
Canada, where I was born,
citizenry
is based on language,
and
not flesh and blood.
I
appreciate the adhesion of
first-generation
immigrants
to
assimilationist practices.
They
usually make the finest
countrymen.
I
am first-generation born here,
and
I raise the issues that
clearly
affect my existence.
My
parents, though never Canadians,
loved
Montreal above all.
The
water of Montreal,
to
be precise. Interesting.
Since
water is becoming an issue
in
our world today.
Some
historical site
published
a few pages of my memoir
this
week. Its original title
was
Fourth-Class Citizens.
I
was forced to change that title.
There
are four classes
in
this country.
The
order is the same
except
for order of
the
first two
changes
depending
on
the territory one lives.
Canada
is officially (legally)
a
bilingual and bicultural country.
This
means that only two languages
are
legally spoken in this country:
English
and French.
The
only bilingual province is New Brunswick
(because
of the Acadians).
In
Quebec, the governments declared
Quebec
a unilingual territory.
And
recently (two months ago)
the
provincial government
declared
openly it was against
multiculturalism
and multilingualism.
In
Quebec, you have therefore:
1.
The French-Canadians;
2.
The English (from Great Britain);
3.
The Amerindians (mostly Francophone);
4.
The Others (ethnics).
This
is pretty much Law
in
Quebec. So there is no such
thing
a person like me.
People
like me are going
to
disappear.
If
there is a person like me,
she
will soon pass away.
In
ten years, the person I am
(persons
like me) will no longer
exist
in Quebec.
What
made me will be erased
from
history books. My childhood
neighborhood
is being rewritten
in
Quebec’s history book.
Now
on to Canada (minus Quebec).
There
is a growing tension
in
the Rest of Canada (RoC).
This
bicultural and bilingual law
is
in truth starting to bother Canadians.
There
are so many
other
languages and cultures
in
this land, French supremacy
is
being questioned.
They
are all fourth-class
citizens
in Canada.
1.
British;
2.
French-Canadians (who has equal rights
in
the rest of Canada; Britains no longer have
the
same rights in Quebec);
3.
Amerindians (mostly Anglophone);
4.
The Others (ethnic).
Now,
of course, if one sees
Quebec
as a nation,
then
all of this discourse is
of
no importance.
If
Quebec is a province,
then
there are some serious
problems.
I
do not believe in a heaven
of
writers. I have said it
often,
writers are the vehicle
of
the government’s agenda.
Poets
and novelists is Canada
get
their jobs because of the
works
they publish.
More
like scholarly works
give
pay raises to profs.
(A
publisher in Canada
actually
would ask for a 10%
cut
of the raise a prof would
get
whenever a book published
would
give the prof a raise.
Whether
a joke or not,
this
has been told to me
by
the publishers.)
Gaston
Miron often said
in
public, We want an Independent Quebec
with
the Canada Council grants.
A
joke?
I
wrote my first book
in
1973 in French.
I
learned French in bed
with
my first girlfriend.
So
my love of French goes
deep.
I filmed my first film
in
French. I composed my first
songs
in French.
Though
I was an Anglo-Italic.
I
stopped writing French
in
2010 as a political gesture.
I
also refuse to appear in
public
since Quebec
forces
schools in east side of
Montreal
where Italians
would
send their children to school.
In
1967: Italians were
educated
in houses/homes
because
they were not
allowed
to go to English-language
schools:
I just found this
out
last year.
I
had read about this:
but
it is another thing
to
actually meet professionals
who
had to study
clandestinely
in Montreal.
If
I am asked to sing
a
French-language song today,
I
will sing only songs
from
France written by immigrants.
In
my humble opinion
Canadian
literature
that
informed me begins with
Patrick
Straram and Leonard Cohen.
Regardless
of what critics
think
of their work,
it
is their words
that
made me want
to
become a writer
in
the 1960s.
Anything
before that
walks
under the shadow
of
Britain and France.
Sorry
for blabbing
about
myself.
But
like I said
I
represent people
in
this city who
are
disappearing,
and
no one is saying
a
thing, and most sadly,
not
even the ones concerned.
This
is so troubling,
because
in fact the
real
problem I realize
is
me. And not them.
It
is I who am I bad citizen
and
a bad writer
for
writing about all of this stuff.
J-PM: Very well said... I know how you feel... the English grade school I attended in Trois-Rivières is now an old-folks’ home... Les disparus, c’est nous...
EF: Election season has officially begun. I don’t know if language will be a key issue. A stat did come out before the kickoff saying that the use of French in Montreal has dropped off by one percent. According to the report, the cause is attributed to Quebec’s poor immigration performance in luring francophone speakers to the province. Another is that the immigrants who do come here don’t list English or French as their language spoken at home. So I suspect the CAQ will be touting their Bill 96 as a necessity. This will play well in the rural areas where the French language is not “under attack” but will be propagandised as such. In Montreal, the multilingual reality will continue to be the rule. There will be challenges to the bill. Klein’s successful-failure of a poem ‘Montreal’ (1948) is an attempt to integrate the two languages into a poem. Lucien Francoeur and Jean Paul Daoust, two poets of my generation, did/are doing something similar on the French side although their integration was a cultural Quebécois/American mix. But I think Carolyne’s description of her experience in Quebec/Montreal is the future: the many solitudes will marry their joys and troubles but their poetry will travel parallel and separate paths. It’s the reality of language. It is both a wall and a bridge. The real challenge is to have people who can and want to read the poems.
CVDM: I agree that language can be both a wall and a bridge. So far, it’s always been a bridge for me—and I’ll continue working towards keeping it that way. This is not to say that I am not aware of—and disturbed by the issues around language—but I prefer to focus on all the opportunities for connection, on the ways that the language of poetry can bring us together, not drive us apart.
AD:
I
wrote Babel and published
a
four language poem.
It
works but this sort of text
serves
no purpose
beyond
tickling the knowledgeable
reader.
Not
sure
what
to add!
Carolyne,
we will see
what
happens
by
trying to connect those
in
the nationalist divide.
ciao
One
thing is clear:
it
is I who is the mad one.
I
have this ideal in my head,
which
I think is out there
in
this universe. But it is imaginary.
And
it is not nationalism.
Nationalism
is
everywhere. Some praise it
and
others want to get rid of it.
But
those who are against it
might
not really be anti-nationalist
but
imperialists.
With
the collapse of right and left wing
politics,
discussion about matters of tribes,
nations,
language, religion, countries,
have
not really moved off the pages
of
some philosophers.
The
only thing I would like to say
is
that this entire talk
cannot
move beyond
because
we are all
children
of 19th century
concepts
of social constructs.
Max
Stirner, Bakunin and Kroptokin's idea of Mutual Aid
(stateless
collectivities) have not been able
to
fully develop: Guernica the city (this is why
I
called my press Guernica) was the only
anarchist
city in Europe.
It
was quickly destroyed by nationalists
(Mussolini
(who invented the idea), Hitler (who
perfected
the horror), and Franco who led
us
to our modern societies.
I
feel that I live this province
has
become a dangerous prison.
This
is my feeling. I was born here,
I
left this place, and for some stupid
reason
came back, and can't move out
because
I need to help my mother
who
is 93.
Ok.
Enough. Forgive me for
this
digression.
I
have said too much.
Again
thank you,
and
please forgive me.
Poet, novelist, essayist, translator, Antonio D’Alfonso has published more than fifty books (including translations) and has made five feature films. He is the founder of Guernica Editions which he managed for thirty-three years before passing it on to new owners in 2010. For his writings, he won the Trillium Award, the Bressani Award. His film Bruco won the New York Independent Film Award. He holds a Ph.D. from the University of Toronto. In 2016, he received a Honorary Doctorate from Athabasca University. His new film, TATA (Daddy), was released in July 2020. The Two-Headed Man: Collected Poems 1970-2020 was published in July 2020. He has started on youtube a series of Conversations with artists and producers.
Endre Farkas, poet / playwright/author/ was born in Hungary. He is a genre fluid writer who has published two novels, twelve books of poetry and two plays. His work has been translated into French, Spanish, Italian, and Slovenian. He has read and performed widely in Canada, the United States, Latin America, and Europe, and has created performance pieces that have toured across the country and abroad. He has also translated the poetry of Bari Karoly. His book How To was nominated for the AM Klein poetry award in 1983. He is the two-time winner of the CBC radio Poetry “Face Off” Competition. His collaborative book and video poem Blood is Blood was the winner of Zebra’s International Poetry Film Festival (Berlin) 2012. His novel Home Game was shortlisted for the Mavis Gallant Prize for Fiction. His latest book of poetry, I will Tell You One More Thing was just published by Ekstasis Editions in 2022.
Joe Fiorito was born in Fort William, Ontario, in 1948. He is a veteran journalist, having worked first as a CBC Radio producer, and then as a city columnist for the Montreal Gazette, The Globe&Mail, The National Post and the Toronto Star newspapers. He won the National Newspaper Award for Columns in 1995; the Brassani Prize for Short Fiction in 2000; and the City of Toronto Book Award in 2003. He is the author of eight books, including two collections of poetry. He is married and lives in Toronto.
A certified translator, researcher and communications specialist, Jean-Paul Murray has translated nineteen books. From 1995 to 1998, he was managing editor of Cité libre, a magazine founded by Pierre Elliott Trudeau. His previous translations for Ekstasis Editions include Robert Lalonde’s Seven Lakes Further North, Little Eagle with a White Head, Louis Hamelin’s Betsi Larousse and André Major’s The Devil’s Wind. In the coming months, Ekstasis will publish his translation of René Frégni’s Je me souviens de tous vos rêves. From 2001 to 2009, he was speech writer for the Speaker of the Senate and senior policy advisor to two Leaders of the Opposition in the Senate. He lives in Chelsea, Quebec and is secretary of the Gatineau Park Protection Committee.
Ken Norris was born in New York City in 1951. He came to Canada in the early 1970s, to escape Nixon-era America and to pursue his graduate education. He completed an M.A. at Concordia University and a Ph.D. in Canadian Literature at McGill University. He became a Canadian citizen in 1985. Norris is Professor Emeritus at the University of Maine, where he taught Creative Writing and Canadian Literature for thirty-three years. He currently resides in Toronto.
Carolyne Van Der Meer is Montreal-based journalist, public relations professional and university lecturer who has published articles, essays, short stories and poems internationally. She is the author of Motherlode: A Mosaic of Dutch Wartime Experience (WLUP, 2014), Journeywoman (Inanna, 2017) and Heart of Goodness: The Life of Marguerite Bourgeoys in 30 Poems | Du coeur à l’âme : La vie de Marguerite Bourgeoys en 30 poèmes (Guernica Editions, 2020). This book, for which she translated her own poems into French, was awarded second prize in the Poetry Category of the Catholic Media Association's 2021 Annual Book Awards and was a finalist in the Specialty Books category of The Word Guild’s 2021 annual Word Awards. Her fourth book, a full-length poetry collection, Sensorial, was released by Inanna in May 2022.